Hi everyone,
Too pooped for my shirt
I'm pooped. Too tired to write, too tired to think. Spring cleaning -correction: cleaning for Passover,I should say-- is not easy when there's a deadline and little kids who don't care.
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Does Every culture have one?
Americans have Laural and Hardy
Haitians have Booky and Mali
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Pets. I've often thought about having a pet. I just don't want to take care of it. lol
As it stands now, all my kids have pet rocks.
Except for one, who has a pet asphalt.
18 comments:
This is off-topic, but I was wondering about that mini-poll at the side of your page, about a frum Jewish inter-racial dating site. What does that mean exactly? Do you mean Jews actually going out of their way to date Jews of another race? Or simply open to the possibility? All the frum dating sites accept Jews of all races (provided, of course, that they're Jewish according to frum standards). I also wonder what constitutes "a different race." When an Ashkenazi marries a Sephardi, is that inter-racial? How about an Ashkenazi and a Yemenite?
Hi K,
Originally, I meant Afr. Amer frum Jewish and others. Although I hear people professing that there is no color in Judaism, people are just Jewish or not, but when it comes to shidduchim, many shadchans are afraid to suggest a girl if she's black. No matter how frum, beautiful, devoted she is. Or if they do present her its with a big "BUT" from what I'm told.
So I was toying with the idea of creating an IR matchmaking site, only as a supplement to main sites. But the idea is not fully formed.
At any rate, I see there's about as much people willing as there are unknowing.
(The idea of Temaini, etc. is a good one. but I have to learn how to be more suave w/the race business as so many others seem to be)
lol!!! that made my day.
I know that some Jews are opposed to even Ashkenazi-Sephardi marriages. I was recently turned down for a shidduch with an Iranian girl for that reason. I didn't mind, and I respected her decision. But even among people who are open to such matches, some of them wouldn't want to date a Jew of a different race, and "different" race usually means black or Asian. Still, I'm not sure how many of these people would admit it outright. As a rule, people who preach color-blindness are often the least likely to practice it.
But I do think it's far from clear that Jews themselves are a "white" people, as is so often assumed. In the old classification system, people from the Middle East were considered part of the Caucasian race. That included (most) Jews and Arabs. In early twentieth century immigration policy, however, many Europeans were considered non-white, and that included Ashkenazic Jews. Nowadays, Ashkenazim have been reclassified as whites, but the common perception remains that Arabs are people of color. This dichotomy can lead to some strange notions about Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews.
Recently I saw an article about the debate over Columbus's ethnic origins. The article was trying to be evenhanded, so it created a chart in which it mentioned pros and cons to each theory. When it reached the hypothesis that Columbus was Jewish or of Jewish descent, it included the following statement on the "con" side: "Most Jews in Southern Europe at the time were Sephardic Jews of North African descent, but preliminary analysis of Columbus's DNA suggests he was Caucasian." Of course this statement is ridiculous, and flies in the face of much genetic research showing a close kinship between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. But I think it stems from confusion between race as a biological category and race as a social category.
As I am learning race is a very social or even political phenomenon.
Nevertheless, I know that there are guys /girls who are totally fine with IR relationships, I just don't know how to get to them.
this survey was just a small step towards that.
Get to them?
My hunch is that a majority of frum singles are not opposed to dating a Jew of another race.
Myself, I'm not opposed to it in theory, but I am a cohen, which limits me to Jews-from-birth.
Quite frankly, the sorts of frum people who do oppose IR dating will probably not be hanging around this blog.
I enjoy talking with you, but I'm not quite sure where this conversation is going, K.
It sounds like you took offense at something I said, but I'm not sure what. I didn't mean to seem like I was bashing your idea. A frum IR dating site might be fine, but I'm just curious how much it's needed. I'm currently a member of two dating sites, frumster and SawYouatSinai. In frumster, there are no shadchanim, you just look at profiles until you find one that strikes your fancy. Since the profiles usually contain photographs of the person, it's quite possible that some people may reject a profile off the bat because they see the person is of another race. That's their problem--and their loss.
At SawYouAtSinai, on the other hand, the shadchanim are the ones who find the profiles for you. But, again, it's ultimately up to the single to make the decision based on the profile they see. As long as the profiles contain photographs of the person, I don't see why the shadchanim should ever have to ask an awkward question like, "Would you be willing to date a black girl?"
I could be wrong, of course. Many of today's shadchanim may have a bias against even suggesting an interracial match, and a frum IR dating site may be one way to deal with the problem. If we're talking about traditional shadchan services, and not Internet sites, I'm sure you're correct, and that you have personal experience about the matter.
Don't take my words as discouragement; I'm just offering my perspective, and I'm willing to be proven wrong (though it will sadden me).
Dating ir within the realm of religion is even MORE exhausting than non religious ir unions.
History: When Jws first migrated to the US, they were not considered white.
Mariam you have a good idea to try an ir site. I would not qualify but I applaud the thought you have.
This ir union thing is frustrating. I think kylopod is bringing awareness that ir would not be so accepted with the standards he is aware of.
K,
I'm not offended. Sorry, just tired.
I am just playing things by ear right now. These are what I've been told. My own personal experience - I didn't go through internet, I went the old fashioned way. One shadchan was pretty mean to me, the majority were parve, and one helped me to find my husband, B'H.
Right about frumster: its pretty open. My sister is on there, so she's told me so.
Anonymous -Just curious, how is it more exhausting? More frustrating? Have you been in an IR relationship?
I'm just trying to find a way to help my friends.
Its frustrating because of how people meet now. I think we (singles) all need to step back and slow down. There is too much emphasis on the physical and not enough spiritual connections (meaning heart felt). I've even heard this is an issue for Orthodox men also (wanting fluff instead of traditional). Perhaps this is a state side thing.
Honestly, I think the best way to meet is through personal intro from a friend or fam member. Or back to the ways of seeing someone (maybe in passing for a while) then taking a chance to converse.
(btw: I am not Jewish...sorry if I am speaking when I ought not)
...Anonymous?...
...have you been participating in the mini poll there...?
Hi Mariam.
No I did not participate in the poll because it seemed I did not feel authorized to do so.
My comments were just about relationships in general.
I knew to stay out of the poll because I am not of the the same faith.
(I will not interfere again---smile)
Anonymous- no no!
Its quite alright. I was just making sure everything was going fine.
Feel free to add your input. I just wish I knew who you were. But your comments are appreciated!
I do think the poll seems implicitly geared toward Jews. It's the way it's worded: "as long as she's Jewish," "even if she's Jewish," "only if it wasn't frum / religious," etc.
I had to make considerations when I realized my blog had a partly non-Jewish audience, even though I tend to comment mostly on Jewish blogs. I had to pay attention to the wording I used (frum-speak is not a universal tongue).
Ortho-racism is an ugly topic that I have mixed feelings about mentioning at all on the Internet. Just mentioning that it exists can make us look bad, hurt relations with non-Jews, and provide fuel for anti-Semites who will swoop down and jump on any "proof" that Judaism is a racist religion.
But I am not a PR guy, and I am not trying to "sell" Judaism. The blog world is a valuable place for discussing issues of this kind. And anyway, I think hiding our problems is not going to help us in the long run.
As for the poll, I was one of those who answered, "Yes, I am open to marrying someone of a different race as long as she's Jewish." I certainly see no reason why not, though I have never given the issue that much thought before. I wondered why I would want to sign up for such a service, especially if it had a fee. I see no reason to go out of my way to date interracially, and my restrictions as a cohen would make it impractical for me to do so. Still, in order for such a service to work, there would obviously have to be "white" Jews participating.
Here in Baltimore, I have heard a major rabbi or two discourage both converting non-whites, and adopting non-white children. (I assume these rabbis are worried about issues of fitting in, and are not simply expressing racist attitudes.) But the general community seems to have paid no attention to this advice. A great deal of children adopted by frum families these days aren't white, and when the local frum newsletter ran an article on several converts in the community, most of them weren't white.
As the Jewish community becomes more diverse, we will have no choice but to confront issues of interracial dating and so on. Saying "let them date other Jews of color" would be ridiculous.
K said:
(Is it okay that I just call you "K"?)
"I have heard a major rabbi or two discourage both converting non-whites, and adopting non-white children. (I assume these rabbis are worried about issues of fitting in, and are not simply expressing racist attitudes.)"
If only that rabbi know how much it meant for someone who wants to be Jewish. Yes, I know conversion is discouraged.
But those who thirst for it. Its like life can't go on. The wait is suffocating. The denial painful. Its something a person breathes, eats, drinks, sleeps. The desire simply can't go away because "oh they may not fit in". Fitting in is the least of their worries.
Everytime I light Shabbat candles, I want to cry. Tears of Joy. And I have been lighting for quite some time now.
Anyway, its not something I can convey in words and if I could, I 'd be too embarrassed to.
I appreciate our friendship, K. I hope you don't ever think I'm upset with you --at least never to the point that i'll hate or anything like that.
The poll and an IR dating site is not a fully developed idea. I'm not even sure where to go from here. So far I only have about 39 ppl who voted and almost half said they don't know. lol. That kind of leaves me in a quandry.
Plus the fact that I only made One shidduch in my entire life doesn't boost me with alot of confidence.
I'll keep thinking about it.
K is fine.
I don't know what the rabbi's reasons were. I'm just speculating, and I'm trying hard not to jump to the conclusion that he was simply a racist.
Most of the converts I've known have a fire in them. There's a kabbalistic idea that gerim had Jewish souls to begin with. I'm not sure I buy this idea (which seems to smack of predestination), but it's an interesting thought.
If you wanted to go ahead with your idea, online polls are only a tiny start. You'd need to talk to other people in the community.
Only one shidduch? I haven't made even that many.
Miriam, I would like to talk to you. I am a frum girl and am interested in dating black jews. . . can you blog some contact info?
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